Explaining my title may prove to be a tricky undertaking unless my readers have , at some point in their lives , tried their hands at learning another language. Fluff , Mona , Julie - Ann , Raenie , Barb and Pat among my friends have more than likely already caught the gist of what I'm going to say. Yes , I'm talking about the pronominal system of formal or informal address , anchored in the socio - grammatical makeup of the languages we speak. In other words it's all about the ubiquitous YOU of English , the dynamic duo tu / vous of French , the Swedish gruesome twosome du / ni , the German trio du / Sie / Ihr , the Italian quattuour tu / voi / Lei / Loro as well as the Spanish foursome tu / vos / Usted / Ustedes and others. In short it concerns the pronouns we use in our everyday lives with those around us ...... in both ordinary as well as more solemn situations. English is a piece of cake with its universal YOU .... whereas other languages present more complicated dilemmas when choosing the socially and culturally correct pronouns of address..........
To make a long story shorter there exists in French ...... the language I've been using on a daily basis for almost 50 years now both at home and at work......a set of pragmatic rules or roadmap governing my choice of socially correct terms of addressing others .... appropriate for every occasion. At least that's the impression the books give !! It all looks very simple when the grammar states that the 2nd person singular informal "tu " is used when speaking to a child , a friend , a younger family member while the plural pronoun "vous " is reserved for two or more people in general . The "vous "word with appropriate verb endngs is likewise used when addressing an individual of equal or higher rank.... and here is where the fun begins !! Who is my social / intellectual / phyical / etc peer and is he / she "vous-worthy "? As a general rule I greet all adults I don't know with the "vous " form and then wait to see how things pan out afterwards. The transition from the more polite and formalistic "vous" to the openly friendly "tu "relationship with others is a trip I've made quite often in my life. The grammar books can't tell you how to do it .... but good common horse sense can !!
Time for an example. These last months Fluff's stove has been in failing health so I decided to call up Adrien , the Maytag guy , an aquaintance of many years here at the Lake........ a bit older than myself and now retired but formerly number one repairman for Sears / Kenmore.. One afternoon last week I met him at the bank and we spoke briefly .... sometimes "tu" , sometimes "vous "..... and finally decided upon his coming to check out our stove during the following week. He came yesterday morning and just as we were pulling the stove away from the back wall I stopped and breached the subject with him directly saying that we had never been backslapping friends , never had a drink together , never went fishing together , never hung out with the same crowd..... but that in spite of this I had always felt a certain affinity for the man. He burst out laughing almost at once admitting that he too felt it was about time we passed from "vous " to "tu ".
P.S. The polite form is highly advisable to anyone having a chance encounter with a skunk in the forest .
Yes the psychological problem of the english. After living 40 years in German/French/Italian surroundings I don't think I know today how it works. One thing has got easier for me being 61 years old, I can tell people "you can say you to me" without big problems. Naturally at work I would not say to the chief director "I am Pat". I suppose I have learnt a few things. The strange thing here is that he told me one day to call him by his first name although he is 20 years younger, so there are really no firm rules. It is custom in Switzerland to say "Gruetzi" (hello) if you go for a walk in the woods or in nature to people you meet on the way. My mother-in-law always said, they should greet me first before I greet them, after all they are younger than me. So what happens now when I go for a walk and other people greet me first - result: am I really that old?. I understand exactly what you mean - so why don't the English use the word "Thou" for their friends and relations (I believe the Quakers do). I say "du" to my cats (although in our local dialect we actually use the word Ihr combined with euch, euer etc. - something like the Italians that use voi in certain areas). I could go on for paragraphs on this theme so will now stop. Very interesting blog - thanks.
ReplyDeleteI understand very well what you mean... Over here I think it is common to say Ni to someone you do not really know, or someone that is "Important". I do use my common sense! Things have changed a lot though, since I were a child. These days most say Du to each other. Not often you hear Ni.
ReplyDeleteOne thing is for certain, you will get a VERY bad look if you say Du to anyone in the Royal family! LOL That is a big NO NO. Don't think it is ok to say Ni either... Always hear your highness.
Thank you for the birthday greeting! =o) KRAM
Copied this from Wikipedia:
ReplyDeleteA very significant change in Swedish occurred in the 1960s, with the so-called du-reformen, "the you-reform". Previously, the proper way to address people of the same or higher social status had been by title and surname. The use of herr ("mr"), fru ("mrs") or fröken ("miss") was only considered acceptable in initial conversation with strangers of unknown occupation, academic title or military rank. The fact that the listener should preferably be referred to in the third person tended to further complicate spoken communication between members of society. In the early 20th century, an unsuccessful attempt was made to replace the insistence on titles with Ni (the standard second person plural pronoun) — analogous to French. Ni wound up being used as a slightly less arrogant form of du used to address people of lower social status. With the liberalization and radicalization of Swedish society in the 1950s and 60s, these previously significant distinctions of class became less important and du became the standard, even in formal and official contexts.
Bror Rexed (June 19, 1914 - August 21, 2002) was a Swedish neuroscientist and professor at Uppsala University. Internationally, he is best known today for his development of the system now known as Rexed laminae, but in Sweden, he is also known for his involvement in the "du-reformen" of the Swedish language.
I remember well when this happened. As I grew older I realize how difficult it must have been...the old system was so ingrained in people. Still is, up to a point.
IN Sweden...if someone addresses me with «Ni» I would find it....if not offensive...so at least that they want to make a distance. This must be very hard to fathom if you've NEVER been in contact with a foreign language. At work I tended to address older patients in third person singular or name.
The ones you can be really certain of how to address are the members of the Royal family. No doubt there... like Mona said... the rules are clear.
About dropping the «vous»: Isn't it the same thing in English?! You're not on a first-name-basis with all people you meet...
Puss och kram,
Fluff Rebkin :o)
In English I think it is all done with feeling. You just know who to call by first name and who not, so I suppose it is the same in all languages. It is just in your own mother language it is easier. My other half was often in Sweden (Gothenburg - a big Swedish lorry making company - guess who) and he picked up some bits and pieces, but said that everyone seemed to be on "du" terms. You very rarely heard the polite form, but the explanation has now made it clear.
ReplyDeleteThis is always confusing to me. Still is sort of. Then in my swedish club the one guy teaches is very old swedish so we do hear 'ni' often. But even here, there are those who assume they can use your first name --- the check out person at a store. As soon as I write a check, they call me Julie, like we are best friends. I do not like that.
ReplyDeleteWow , what a response !! First of al I'll start by making a few general comments and then I must go outside and shovel a pathway to the road .... then free up our car taken hostage by the weekend snow. I'll be back in often to comment on your comments during the afternoon so do not despair !!
ReplyDelete"Voulez - vous coucher avec moi ? " This French sentence is known worldwide and folks translate it simply as "Do you want to sleep with me ? ". It really means "do you , an individual I hardly know / do not know at all , wish to go to bed with me OR do you , two people or more ( maybe even ménage à trois ou partouse / orgy ) , wish to go to bed with me ?" We have another word in French for to sleep which is "dormir ". Probably not too much sleeping implied anyways ! The less formal alternative would be , " Veux - tu coucher avec moi or more grammatically correct , "Veux - tu te coucher avec moi ?" And never forget the Golden Rule for English..... when in doubt , use YOU !!
This is funny. Coming here to North America from Sweden, that's one of the things I like -- even though it doesn't mean all that much, I find it warm and friendly. So different from where I come from...
ReplyDeleteI remember a funny thing in the beginning here..that really underscores the difference in habit of using first names: We were watching Larry King and his guest (whoever it was) kept adressing him Larry all the time. I asked Gerry...«are these to guys close friends or what?!» Using the first name hasn't been all that common in Sweden but they are slowly getting there.
Thank you so much , Pat , for your keen insights into this question.... especially since you are living in a multilingual , multicultural milieu where these distinctions are constantly being played out. And you are so right about the age factor ! At 72 I can pretty well call the shots and get away with it.... as with my now FRIEND , Adrien ! However , I must admit that , in spite of my natural wont and friendly , outgoing personality ( small lol ) I sometimes use the "vous "word to maintain distance.... as for example during my teaching career at Université Laval with most students ... both male and female .. and most staff members. By doing so I avoided many pitfalls where familiarity bred contempt ... and even worse ! Student - professor .relationshps gone amuck , for example..I'll have more to say about your input a bit later on when I finish my outdoor chores. In the meantime have a great Sunday evening !
ReplyDeleteHej Mona.... thanks for your informative and jovial input. As you well know , Fluff and I often discuss this subject so I fully understand what you are saying here. Maybe that's why Carl Gustave gave me a dirty look when "we Swedes " went to greet him and Queen Silvia last year at the Château Frontenac when I adressed him with the "du "word !! Just kidding there !! Hugs once again to you and Timmy.
ReplyDeleteRebkin, to me it matters how they sound. If they are just too cosy, it puts me off. If it is sort of off-hand, not so much. I also remember when they would call me Mrs. Neywick. I hate that!!! THAT was my mom-in-law! I also do not like someone I do not know calling me Honey or Sweetie or Dear. Unless he is really cute!!!
ReplyDeleteMaybe we should start a movement for all countries to adopt as a greeting, "Yo', dude!" *LOL*
ReplyDeleteI'm really not too used to it -- it's only the times we've been in the States I've been confronted with it and I do enjoy it. «Ma'am»...I like that too :o)
ReplyDeleteHere I only hear Madame. Imagine if someone had told me like ten years ago that I'd be living in a French-speaking part of North America... :)
Rebkin , a chuisle mo chroí....as long as they keep putting the accent or stress on the last syllable of the word " Madame " you're okay.... it's when they accentuate the first syllable that things might get touchy !! I'll be in later t comment all your comments....... just had to do this one while the iron is still hot !! Póga..
ReplyDeleteAnother quick comment. The Native American language ( Innu or Montagnais ) which I taught for over 32 years has but two terms of address based on singularity or plurality .... tshîn and tshînwaw... and this with no special consideration of age , sex , authority or status , etc Very handy , indeed !
ReplyDeleteI kind of like that :)
ReplyDeleteHey Chips.... if you call our house and I pick up first you'll get my usual , "Yo , hello !"... I've been responding this way for years now. I( nver get real polite until I discover it's the IRS !!Have a great day down there in Ohio.... and be kind to Hilary , ok ?
ReplyDeleteRebkin.... if I understand it rightly the du - reformen was not formally adopted into law but rather simply promulgated openly by the Swedish "powers that be "... and the more I look at it , the more it rhymes with Jante Lagen ... or Jante's Law which seems to have had a great hold on traditional Swedish society whereby all are equal and noone is any better than anybody else !! And then again maybe I am reading too much into this du - reformen and the government's intentions.
ReplyDeleteAs for your reference to using the third person address pronouns and joining it to what Pat wrote about aging I can only reply that when the nurse opens the door of my room at the old folk's home with a bedpan in hand saying ," And how is he today ? " followed by " Shall we see whether his bowels are ready for a little action ?"as she taps me gently on the shoulder .... then I'll know I'm over the hill .
This topic or practice is so ingrained in French society that we even have two dictionary words at our disposal when discussing it.... vouvoyer to address someone as VOUS and tutoyer to address someone as TU !!
ReplyDeleteOr duzen and Siezen in German.
ReplyDeleteOr dua and Nia in Swedish.
ReplyDeleteI spent a number of years studing in Italy and I can remember offhand only expressions such as , " dare del tu a qualcuno , dare del Lei a " etc... no one verb as such. I'll check it out later in my Italian dictionary.
ReplyDeleteHey Julie - Ann... thanks for the visits and input. Should I get the "tu " or my first name from unwanted sources I would usually react by replying politely with the "vous ". Or simply ask the person for his'/ her full name an carry on or terminate business accordingly. However , I am very much like Fluff in general... I don't mind folks using my first or family names. And to quote my Dad's old hackneyed expression , " I don't care what folks might call me as long as they don't call me late for supper ". Would it be better if your married name were Vanderbilt ? Just kidding !
ReplyDeleteVanderbilt would certainly be a step or two up!!! *giggles* I have never liked being Mrs. anyone. Not even when first married. Just my own quirk. Julie-Ann is much preferred.
ReplyDeleteThere are females I've been acquainted with here in the States that'd put a knife in your rib cage if you call them ma'am much less Madam.
ReplyDelete"MA'AM? DO I LOOK LIKE A MA'AM?" I kid you not. **LOL**
ps Hillary is too busy campaigning to stop in anymore. **LOL**
How about yous - you'all or just plain howdy?? Sir or Ma'm if I don't know them well.
ReplyDeleteCall me by my first name - i don't care but don't call me honey or sweetie unless you are a good-lookin guy.
In Texas ,way back when, women were called Miss Ellie (as in the tv show Dallas) or Miss Edwina as my mother was called until she got married.
You see we all ain't very formal here.
Very interesting post, Lonesome. Now if I ever run into our president here, someday I will probably say "hey there Mr. George B." "how's it going?"
I think the whole French language should drop the "vous". It is so antiquated. Think about it this way: when kings and queens ruled France, there was a very definite social order, so you would always know who was above you and this "vous" thing would make sense. If you weren't polite to the Queen then - Off with your head! But in today's social system, this is just outdated.
ReplyDeleteMany thanks to all "youse guys " ( Cindy's reminder ) for pitching in and feeding the fires of discussion in this thread throughout the day .... bonne nuit à tous et à toutes !!
ReplyDelete